Journey to Eternity Podcast

From Grace to Restoration: Navigating Sin and Redemption in Ministry

• Luisa and Mike Sirignano • Episode 46

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What happens when a high-profile preacher falls from grace? Join us on this poignant episode of the Journey to Eternity podcast as we tackle the heart-wrenching news surrounding Stephen Lawson, a well-known preacher, who has been ousted from his ministry over allegations of an inappropriate relationship. 

We also delve into the essential roles of forgiveness and restoration within the church, especially when dealing with serious sins like adultery. Our conversation emphasizes approaching a repentant sinner with gentleness, accountability, and humility to foster healing rather than condemnation. 

And in conclusion, this episode confronts the dangers of congregational idolization, reflecting on how figures like Stephen Lawson and John MacArthur can inadvertently become idols. We encourage self-awareness and humility in our spiritual lives, noting the similarities in idolization trends across various Christian communities. 

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Luisa:

So welcome to the show. I'm Luisa.

Mike:

And I'm Mike, and this is episode 46 of the Journey to Eternity podcast.

Luisa:

In every episode we help Christians use God's Word to navigate everyday life in a sinful fallen world.

Mike:

Amen. Well, hey, babe, welcome back.

Luisa:

Welcome back. It seems like it was long, right? Well, it was long.

Mike:

Yeah, it was this has really been a long month yeah. And we just want to let you know that Louisa has been kind of sick for the past month.

Luisa:

No, let's drop the kinder, please. I was sick. Yeah, I know, you were sick.

Mike:

Luisa was diagnosed with an infection in the bone inside her ear and she was really knocked out with dizzy spells and nausea for almost a whole month. We had to go through a lot of testing and a lot of doctor visits and medication. Here we are, fresh as a daisy.

Luisa:

Yes, we are. You know what, babe? I'm so grateful that God was sustaining both of us through this trial.

Mike:

It was really a hard one, yeah.

Luisa:

It's a trial.

Mike:

I know, sweetheart. I'm grateful that you got to the point now where you can actually function and do this podcast.

Luisa:

Yes, because I don't think last week or the week before I could do any kind of—I couldn't do anything, it was horrible.

Mike:

You weren't really ready for that.

Luisa:

No.

Mike:

So we thank you listeners for your patience with us. The other thing we want to talk about is that this is a special episode. We had something planned for this month and we're ready to go with it, but there's been a change of topic. Right because life happens, because life happens and we want to weigh in on it. So, before we do get started, let's pray.

Luisa:

Heavenly Father, please have your way in this podcast. Help Mike and I edify the truth in your word. Open up the hearts of all those who listen to know that sin will destroy everything in our lives, and we pray this in Jesus's name, amen.

Mike:

Amen and unfortunately we've seen the effects of sin destroy the life of a very prominent, high-profile preacher, and that's Stephen Lawson. So about a week and a half ago, the news came out that Steve Lawson was removed from his ministry duties by his church in Dallas, texas, and it was due to him coming forward and admitting that he was having an inappropriate relationship with a woman who was not his wife.

Luisa:

Exactly.

Mike:

There's a lot of allegations out there. There's a lot of people talking about it.

Luisa:

There's a lot of opinions, it's all opinions. Yes, a lot of story, a lot of anger, a lot of everything that is not Christ-like for me.

Mike:

Right, it's really made a mess out of the Christian world, and the problem is that we really don't know the truth at this point. There's been nothing. There's been no statement from him, been no statement from the other people involved. There's only been a statement by the elders of his church saying why they removed him from his ministry duties in the church, right. So the allegations are about adultery and I really want to preface this by saying that we're not here to gossip. We're not here to condemn him.

Luisa:

We're not here to beat him down.

Mike:

No, not at all, but this is a topic that's worthy of a conversation, and it's really frightening out there how sin can destroy not only the people who commit the sin. Not only can destroy their lives, but the lives of a lot of other people around them.

Luisa:

Right, and that includes a congregation, and that includes family, and that includes a wife, and that includes grandchildren and that includes children and it's horrific.

Mike:

So what the allegations are is that Steve Lawson was involved with a woman who was not his wife, a much younger woman, for five years. Now, again, these are allegations. This is all coming off social media, which we know is not the most reliable thing in the world, but whatever it is, he was removed and apparently there was no resistance to that. So we're looking at something that has happened and, again, until all the facts come out, we're not going to know for sure what it is. But adultery is adultery, whether there was physical contact, whether it was in the mind, in the spirit, and Matthew, chapter 5, verses 27 and 28, says this about adultery.

Luisa:

You have heard that it is said do not commit adultery. But I tell you, everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Mike:

Okay, so these are the words of Jesus Christ and this was in the Sermon on the Mount. So adultery people will sometimes say that adultery is well. There was no physical contact, but five years is a long time.

Luisa:

And again, this is what they're saying. So we don't know much. We just know what we're seeing, what we're hearing, especially out in social media.

Mike:

But adultery is a horrific sin Right and it has such a far-reaching effect and the elders of Steve Lawson's church, which is Trinity Bible Church in Dallas, texas. They put out a statement saying that they had removed him from all ministry.

Luisa:

Right, and I think that we should just stay there instead of listening to everything else out there.

Mike:

Okay, so obviously the elders were blindsided by this Like nobody could have saw this coming.

Luisa:

There's a lot of people that— oh, you think nobody could have saw it coming, babe. I sometimes think that people just avoid and don't say anything.

Mike:

That's true, but really there was nothing out there that would have suggested this. There really was nothing out there. Now we're not in that inner circle. We don't know these people personally, so we would not have any intimate knowledge of what's going on. But from what it seems, the elders were blindsided by this and this really put them in a hard position, because I'm sure this was devastating for them to hear.

Luisa:

Of course it was devastating for us to hear. So imagine them and that congregation hearing that. It's devastating as a believer.

Mike:

And because we're not down there, we don't know what was said to the congregation. I know there was a clip out on YouTube of part of the service from this past Sunday, but I don't know how the congregation was addressed and I know that for us in our previous church there was some sin that happened in the pastoral realm and it was never addressed to us.

Luisa:

And I think this is why this resonates with you and I in that way, when it comes to the congregation part, because the congregation was left out in the cold and we knew what was going on, and they made stories and they didn't say nothing, they lied, they did a lot of things that were just so horrible, and I don't think that that's how Christ's church should be.

Mike:

Well, we were not shocked at some of the things that went on in our old church.

Luisa:

No.

Mike:

But the fact that people were there one day and gone the next and no explanation was ever given, that was kind of rough and I was a pastor and was ever given, that was kind of rough, and that was a pastor, and it led to actually more speculation. Right Now, again, the elders are in a really difficult position.

Luisa:

Yes, and we must pray for them.

Mike:

They probably don't know everything that went on. So I pray for them that they would just prayerfully look at the situation and handle it in a God-honoring way. And again we don't know what that is Right. So I just I feel bad for them, I feel bad for that congregation.

Luisa:

They don't know. No, I don't feel bad for them. I'm broken for them. Yeah, okay, I get that, I am so broken for that congregation because this is so horrific and it should not be, but it is. We know that we're sinful people in a sinful world.

Mike:

And the transparency to the world. Well listen, the world is not owed anything, and that's what bothers me.

Luisa:

The world thinks that you know what everybody's supposed to know. Everything we tell us we need to know. We need every detail, we need every I dotted, every T crossed Social media has been exploding and of course this is what happens.

Mike:

It's our lust, yes, Our, and of course this is what happens.

Luisa:

It's our lust.

Mike:

Yes, our lust for information.

Luisa:

Yes, okay, we're so used to getting everything quickly, in 90 seconds.

Mike:

So when that doesn't happen, people make stuff up Right. So there's a lot of stuff being put out on social media. There's a lot of speculation, of course, from believers, and that's another problem. We expect it from the world. We expect it from Christians that don't like the reformed Christians. I expect that from them. But even from within our own circle it's coming out and it comes from inside and outside the church and there's a lot of public condemnation here and, yes, there's sin involved here. But just to watch the wolves feed on a carcass is really disturbing, and that's kind of how I look at it. And it's not going to go away. And the news feed in the world is quick, it turns over really quick, because there's something new happening.

Mike:

every day there's something new happening all the time, but I'm talking about within the Christian world. This is going to stick for a while. Right, we had Alice to Beg happen last year with the whole transgender wedding type of thing and that lasted for a while. They wanted to cancel that, poor man. Right, they didn't actually look at the body of work that he had, all the good that he did in 40, 50 years of ministry and whatever can be said. Steve Lawson has an amazing body of work that he's had over the years.

Mike:

Now is this a really egregious sin. Yeah, it's not like telling grandma go to a gay wedding. This is adultery. This sin is very, very, very egregious Right and people are condemning him.

Luisa:

But let me ask you a question Are people condemning him instead of praying for him? Because the first thing that came to my mind when I first saw this and heard this, like I told you, my spirit grieved and I went straight into prayer. I started praying for him. I started praying for his wife. I'm a wife, it's hard.

Mike:

Yeah, I get that. So we have to talk about why they took him out of his ministry. And there are qualifications for pastors and elders, and it's in 1 Timothy 3, verses 2 through 7. And all of these qualifications have to be met in order to be a pastor or an elder, and I'm not going to go through every one of them, but there are some that this sin violated and because of this violation that he needed to be removed and that's why the elders did that.

Mike:

In verse two it says an overseer must be above reproach. So the sin of adultery disqualifies him on that. He must be the husband of one wife. The husband of one wife means that your focus is on your wife alone and no other woman, and this clearly he had his focus somewhere else. It also says he must be self-controlled, sensible and respectable. So on all three of those he's disqualified because clearly, adultery there's no self-control, it's not sensible and it's not respectable. If we move down to verse four, it says he must manage his own household competently. So this throws his entire household into chaos.

Luisa:

Yes, within his wife, his children, his grandchildren his whole extended family, even though he has adult children, right.

Mike:

Yeah, it doesn't matter. It all has a big effect on them, right? So that's a disqualification. And if we go to verse 7,. Furthermore, he must have a good reputation among outsiders so that he does not fall into disgrace and the devil's trap. Now, clearly he was trapped by the devil and clearly the entire world has looked at him now in a way that he doesn't have a good reputation anymore.

Luisa:

Right.

Mike:

And I don't think that will ever go away. So when they talk about whether he can be restored to any type of pastoral position or any type of leadership within the church, I don't know that that can happen, but he can be restored as a Christian, yes. See, that's where I think people have gotten lost in this whole.

Luisa:

Thing.

Mike:

Because he's still a Christian as long as he is truly repentant, as long as Jesus Christ is still his Lord and Savior, as long as his faith is solid, he's still a Christian Right Savior. As long as his faith is solid, he's still a Christian, and I think it's important to know that true repentance will restore him to the church. And it's up to us, as other Christians, to look at a man who is truly repentant and bring him back into the fold of the church. There's no reason why he can't find a church, maybe not the one that he's in now, but there's no reason why a local church can't receive him as somebody who comes and worships God, because your Christian life doesn't end with sin. All of our Christian lives would be end. Sin is sin. This is an egregious sin, but we all have egregious sin in our lives.

Luisa:

Every single one of us.

Mike:

So we can still stand up and worship and confess our sins. So I don't know if he's done that because, again, he hasn't made a statement.

Luisa:

And he might never make a statement.

Mike:

Right. But he might not. But only God knows if he's truly repentant or not. Now, of course, all the evidence has not come out yet and it may never come out, but there's no reason for him not to be restored. And I think, if we are truly brothers and sisters in Christ, if we're truly his church, if he comes to them in repentance, what would stop them from receiving him back? In Galatians, chapter 6, verses 1 and 2, it says Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. And then it says keep watch on yourself lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ.

Luisa:

Amen.

Mike:

So it says if anyone is caught in any transgression, that doesn't disqualify adultery from something that you can't show forgiveness for and you can't show restoration for. It says you who are spiritual, now that could mean the elders, that could mean church leadership, but it also is us as part of the congregation that we have to be able to receive someone who is repentant and bring them back in.

Luisa:

Yeah, because we don't want him to disappear. No, Okay, we don't want no that would be horrible Right.

Mike:

And it says to do it in a spirit of gentleness, which means we don't condemn him, which means we come alongside him, we don't judge. We don't judge him, we hold him accountable for his sin and he will bear the consequence of his sin. God is not going to stop that, but we, as Christians don't have to pile on him. And then it says keep watch on yourself lest you too be tempted, because, listen, we are all susceptible to the wiles of the devil.

Luisa:

Let's walk in humility. Let's walk in humility.

Mike:

Let's walk in humility. I really feel like it's up to the church and not only his personal church, but the extended church, all the people that are around him to come around him and restore him. His body of work has been really good over all these years. When he fell into this sin, nobody knows. Over all these years. When he fell into this sin, nobody knows. And, yeah, he did a lot of hypocritical stuff. If it really was five years, let's face it. There's a lot of hypocrisy involved standing up in a pulpit, standing up teaching a class, standing up doing a.

Mike:

Bible study, going home to your wife. There's a lot of hypocrisy there, but God has restored every single repentant sinner, and that includes us. So we have to be gentle in spirit when we're dealing with a situation like this. Right he can still be part of a church body.

Luisa:

Right and in Romans 8.1,. There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus Right. We have to remember that Christ forgives.

Mike:

Right, we have to forgive People, don't.

Luisa:

It's people that don't Right. We have to remember that Christ forgives Right. We have to forgive People don't forgive. It's people that don't yes.

Mike:

So how are we supposed to act as a Christian Right? This is the whole thing that I'm seeing now when we're looking at all the social media stuff. Yeah, there are some people out there that are calling for him to be restored, that are gentle with him, but there's a lot of people out there that are feeding on this and looking to sensationalize it more than they really should be. So we do have to pray for his wife. Like you said before, prayer is always the most we could do. So praying for his wife, praying for his family. We have to pray for his congregation that they would receive him back if he wanted to come back.

Mike:

And also babe pray for anyone else involved including that other woman congregation that they would receive him back if he wanted to come back and also may pray for anyone else involved, including that other woman Right, because there's a lot of other people that are involved in this that we don't know about, and they all need our prayer and I just feel like as Christians, that we really have to be better when it comes to stuff like this. You know, it's easy to sensationalize this, it's easy to condemn him and it's easy to cancel him, like the culture will want to do.

Mike:

This is the cancel culture, and you know what I think that's the problem, that the cancel culture has come into the church, right, that's a problem that is a real big problem because, the church is getting worldly, and the more worldly it becomes, the more it becomes like the rest of social media, the more it comes like the guy next door who doesn't know Christ but wants to point a finger. So we have to, as Christians, we really have to check our hearts and we have to look at how we're responding to all of this and we have to look at the root cause of all this. This is just my opinion, but I believe that it's pride. Pride is such a far-reaching sin, it has tentacles all over it that reach out in so many different directions, and adultery comes from pride, Because the first thing is you think you're invincible. The second thing is you think you can get away with anything.

Luisa:

In Proverbs 16: 18, pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall. Amen, okay.

Mike:

In Galatians, chapter 6, in verse 3, it says for if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.

Luisa:

This is why a lot of these men fall. Okay, Because I want to talk about celebrity pastors.

Mike:

Let's face it, steve Lawson was a celebrity pastor. Yes, yes he was out there, he was everywhere, he was all over, he's all over social media doing all these conferences.

Luisa:

And how does he become a celebrity pastor?

Mike:

People make him a celebrity pastor.

Luisa:

People idolize him. People are looking at the man and not Jesus Christ, babe, I think congregational idolization is a huge problem.

Mike:

It's a big problem. I'm going to just talk about this because I have to confess this Going to a training next week in Dallas.

Luisa:

It's not a conference, it's a training. It's not a conference, it's a training, because you know how I feel about conferences.

Mike:

We're going to talk about that.

Luisa:

Okay, all right.

Mike:

But we're going to a training and Steve Lawson's church is in Dallas and I said, well, we're going to be there on a Sunday, why don't we go visit his church? And I said to myself, why do I really want to go visit his church? And it was because I was enamored with how he preaches. I always thought he was a really strong preacher. I thought he was very commanding in the pulpit and I said I want to go and see that. And I look at it now and that was really wrong for me to want to go there with that motive, right, and that's what and that's the key of searching your own hearts.

Mike:

Yeah, okay, what's?

Luisa:

your motive. You wanted to see the man preach Exactly, and does he preach the word?

Mike:

Yes.

Luisa:

But that wasn't what I mean. It's not that we don't want to hear the word, right, but it was the focus. Was Steve Lawson?

Mike:

exactly, and I'm guilty of this. So I'm I'm looking at it now and I'm realizing that that's how these men get built up like this. That's how they, a weak man, will get puffed up when people idolize him, right? And it's really scary how much this has taken on. And, yes, it has a lot to do with social media, because all these men are out there. They, they're all available, they're all on the media.

Luisa:

There's a circle of them. Yes, there's a big circle of them.

Mike:

And not every man is prideful that's out there but some of them are.

Mike:

We don't need to name names, but there's a lot of them out there that are very prideful, but we can't fall into the trap to condemn all of them for that. But I do believe that this type of atmosphere breeds that Right. So, not going to the church next week? Well, god stopped that, amen. And then, if you think about it, five years ago we were going to go on a trip to California and I said, wow, we're going to be in California.

Luisa:

And you said again why don't we?

Mike:

go over to Grace Community Church. I want to see John MacArthur preach. Right go over to Grace Community Church. I want to see John MacArthur preach and I don't look at John MacArthur as a prideful man, but it was me who wanted to go and see that.

Luisa:

It's not his fault. That was your thing, they're not asking for it.

Mike:

But once it starts happening, it gets good to them and I feel like, wow, I had a part in this, right. So I really have to check my own heart.

Luisa:

And I think that this situation should have people checking their own hearts and checking their motives in the Christian circuit in the world that we live in.

Mike:

It's a big circuit. Yes, all these conferences. Okay, think about it. All these guys travel from conference to conference. All right, if you go to G3, you go to Ligonier, the Shepherds Conference they have them all over the country Women's conferences there's women's conferences as well, and then there's even a lot of smaller conferences that you don't even hear. Those are only the big dogs. There's a lot of little conferences that happen throughout the country, and it's all kind of the same thing just on a lesser scale.

Luisa:

Church is becoming a big business, yes, and even in the reformed world we know that, in the charismatic world, that it's a business all right, we get all that and we try to look but if we're honest and we look and we see as reformers. Yeah, we see the charismatic world and you start looking at the reform world of this circuit, you say, hmm, there's some. It's familiar here. Yeah, it's creeping in.

Mike:

And we have to be really, really careful that we don't make idols out of these pastors, out of these men and women. Yes, yeah, because it happens to women too. There are women's conferences and you've been to them. I've been to two and the idolization was crazy People waiting on the line for pictures doing all this kind of stuff. I know it happens at all these other conferences too.

Luisa:

Why? Because people want to put on their social media. Look who I saw, look who I was standing by, look whose books I bought, Look, look, look, look. And that's the problem.

Mike:

It's scary.

Luisa:

Because they want to put everything on social media, because it makes them feel good that they were standing next to a Steve Jobs, exactly. Or they were standing next to a woman that teaches and I just feel, as a woman was always weary of that and you know that about me yeah, no, you used to come home and tell me.

Luisa:

I've been weary about idolization of anything or anybody, and when I went to a few of the women conferences, women went online to take pictures with these women that are teaching Right, and that boggles my mind.

Mike:

Well, idolatry is a sin. Yes, the definition of idolatry isn't that you're worshiping a carved image. The worship of man is really a hard sin.

Luisa:

And do you think that we're helping those believers, those men and women that are up there doing God's work? We're not helping them, babe, we're not. We're making them feel like they're so important. And people want to take a picture with me, people want to buy my books, people want to be around me because I'm the head dog.

Mike:

Right.

Luisa:

Or I'm that woman, that women want to be like me. I want to be like me.

Mike:

I want to be like jesus christ I don't want to be like anybody else but jesus christ. That's why we have to be careful with this podcast yes, we don't ever want to be idolized. We don't ever want to be thought of as somebody, yeah, thank you. That's how we want to keep it right. So, anybody out there that knows us, if you ever feel like we're crossing the line, please, please, please, call it to our attention, because we're crossing the line.

Luisa:

Please, please, please. Call it to our attention, Right, because we're nothing but dust.

Mike:

I'm frightened of that, to get caught up in that kind of stuff, and that's why we always have to stretch our own hearts.

Luisa:

Yes, every single day, we have to sit with ourselves and we have to say, okay, what was my day like? Who was I trying to be like? Who did I idolize? What was my motive?

Mike:

Was the glory for me, or was the glory for God?

Luisa:

Yes, that's so important.

Mike:

It's difficult, and church leaders and then also Christians in general. We really need to take heed of all this. We have to put safeguards in place. If you look at all this stuff that we talked about today, there's a lot of things to put safeguards about. The sin of adultery. We really have to hold each other accountable. What happened to that in the church? Accountability that is so important. I think people are afraid. I think people are afraid to ruffle feathers. I think people are afraid to offend people. I think people are scared to step out of that box.

Luisa:

Or people are afraid to be isolated when you say something to somebody.

Mike:

Yeah, because that'll happen.

Luisa:

And it will happen.

Mike:

It's really scary.

Luisa:

Yeah, but the Bible is very clear that we have to have accountability partners. I have them in my little woman circle because it's important for me to be held accountable.

Mike:

And I have a couple of men that I can go to.

Luisa:

And I'm so grateful for that.

Mike:

It doesn't have to be a lot, right? Your accountability partner can just be one person, right, maybe two people? Yes, maybe two people that you can really share your sin with Right.

Mike:

That you know hey can you help me with this? I need you to watch out. For me. Sexual sin, just in general, is a scourge and it happens in so many different ways, and it happens in the church and it happens quick and it happens real fast. Yes, so one way to guard against this and I'm just giving this out there, this is a tip here Never put yourself in a situation where you are alone with a member of the opposite sex who is not your spouse. Amen, so things only happen when you're alone with somebody, right? So if you see yourself caught in a situation, remove yourself. If you see yourself where you feel like there's somebody is trying to get you into trouble, remove yourself.

Mike:

Temptation is wicked, temptation comes quick and it'll catch you before you go. Stay home in your own bed. Listen, I have to travel for work sometimes, but I don't take unnecessary travel on Going to a conference. I'm not going to a conference to just go hang out.

Luisa:

And you don't go to conferences. No, I don't. That is not your thing, it's not. And if I do.

Mike:

I'm taking you with me because that's how you safeguard your marriage.

Luisa:

Steve Lawson didn't safeguard his marriage, and conferences are not bad babe.

Mike:

Let's just put that out there. No, I'm not saying they are.

Luisa:

Let's not just make it seem that conferences are bad and they should do without them. But people have to hold themselves accountable.

Mike:

Exactly that's the key, and understand that there's a purpose for why you're going there.

Luisa:

What's the purpose of the conference? The?

Mike:

purpose is to go and learn more about God, but these things turn into like a playground, right, and I really feel like we have to be really, really careful with that. Right, stay at home. Stay at home in your own bed, don't be leaving your wife at home, don't be leaving your husband at home. Right, and as far as idolization, we really have to check ourselves and we have to look that God is the only one to be glorified, that we have to keep our focus on him and not make man into an idol. Right, because that's where we have a lot of problems and, I'm sorry, making man into an idol has become a big business. Yes, and the church really has to take stock of themselves and we're really in frightening times. So I think it's really important that we check ourselves. Very important, and I look at all this in conclusion, that I'm not going to say I'm glad it happened, because I'm not.

Mike:

I think it's horrible, sad, but God uses evil for good.

Luisa:

Yeah.

Mike:

And maybe God used this to give us all a wake-up call.

Luisa:

I think people need a wake-up call. I think in the Christian world sometimes we get really lax, yeah, we get very complacent, we get very lazy. We really convince ourselves that we're walking our walk the right way, without any accountability, without any searching our hearts, without studying our word, without holding ourselves accountable.

Mike:

Exactly.

Luisa:

Because we have to hold ourselves accountable and we have to really, really, really, really be mindful that sin will destroy your life.

Mike:

Amen, okay, amen, amen, let's pray.

Luisa:

Okay.

Mike:

Heavenly Father, we thank you that you are a God of forgiveness. We thank you that you are a God of forgiveness. We thank you that you sent your son, jesus, to die for our salvation. We are all sinners, saved by your grace. We pray for everything we spoke about today. That you would use it for our good and for your glory. In Jesus' name, we pray.

Luisa:

Amen. So that wraps up episode 46. We thank you for listening. We invite you to leave us a comment or a question by going to our website at jtepodcastorg that's jtepodcastorg click on the contact us page and we will respond within 24 hours. If you don't personally know us, introduce yourselves. We would love to get to know you from across the stage or around the world.

Mike:

And while you're there, you can subscribe to the podcast and receive an email the minute a new episode is published. You can also find all of our previous episodes, and we invite you to find one that resonates with you.

Luisa:

And, as always, please support us by sharing this podcast with a friend or on your social media page.

Mike:

Now till next time. We wish you God's blessing as you navigate everyday life in a sinful, fallen world.

Luisa:

May the peace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

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Luisa and Mike Sirignano

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